Remembering What the Declaration of Independence is Not

By that reason you yourself are guilty of the same sin. Aren't you taking the document and politicizing it. The Declaration is serving its purpose. It is a foundation upon which all ideas are built.

Simply because you do not care to try and understand the perspective the author view is based upon does not make the author wrong.

"The people can fall for Hitler, adore Obama, and be enchanted by silly or wicked men. The purpose of government, as the Declaration clearly states, is to secure liberty and not to implement that dubious, inconstant sentiment "the will of the people."."

I take offense to the hitler analogy. No american should ever be compared to those evils. The author is overstating a good point. The will of the people can be swayed if we are not aware of our surroundings. The founding documents of the country are our tools to ensure that we do not become a manipulated people. Well Obama is undermining those principles.

"It lacked a separation of church and state and instead there was a unity of God and government."

I don't think the author is too far off the mark.

"the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of Nature's God entitle them,"

"that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights..........That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,"

"with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

With statements like that im sorry but the religious connection is self evident. If im not mistaken werent alot of them masons.

The last time I read the Declaration of Independence, it made a lot of points...against king George of England.....The document isn't long, and I often though of our own 'King George', when re-reading it.....I mean, we, the people got manipulated into adopting the same kinna thing that olde king was doing to America....huh? Read the damn thing..

......what it didn't say....oh, yesssss...let's go there....(satire).....makes for a long thread going nowhere....

I think it's just plain wrong for religious people to use the Declaration of Independence to force religion on people who don't want it. It reminds me of why the Pilgrims left England. Back in the 1600s England had a state religion, the Church of England, and everyone was forced to join. It was part of government. The Pilgrims wanted the freedom to practice their own religion, so they came to America. The America we know today, the land of freedom, grew from those kinds of beginnings. Freedom became one of the foundation blocks of America. Freedom of choice allowed Americans the opportunities to use the talents they had to build our country.

It would be very sad indeed if America was reduced to a religious state like England of the 1600s or Iran of today.

That s why we have the 1st amendment. Our founding fathers where wise enough to see that not every ones view on religion is the same. Part of Christianity is missionary work or spreading the word of God. For you to try and stifle that voice is in violation of the constitution. You are working to limit their practice of their religion. You have the right to shut the door, or change the channel or not attend a church meeting.

They arent using the Declaration to force religion but interpreting it from their point of view and coming to an opinion that they are expressing. If you were in a theater I would say you are being drawn in by the scenery and ignoring the play.

They arent using the Declaration to force religion...

Actually, they are. That's the point of this article. It states:

Declaration ... lacked a separation of church and state and instead there was a unity of God and government. All men were created equal by God. That is the foundational point of the Declaration...

The author clearly states that he wants a state religion. Furthermore, he is stating that a belief in Christian religion is necessary and should be part of government.

Let's be clear on this -- The Declaration of Independence has nothing to do with religion. And the author's attempt to force religion into government is just plain wrong.

"TO WHICH THE LAWS OF NATURE AND OF NATURES GOD ENTITLE THEM,"

They are drawing upon faith to base their entire argument on.

Sounds like science to me, not God. "Natures God" is another term for the laws of physics and logic. It's science. Regardless, the Declaration of Independence does not endorse forcing a state religion upon people. There is nothing that states that the government of America is a religious-run organization like the Muslim countries.

I would much rather have freedom than have the government force me to live in a Muslim or Christian state. That's an awful way to live. Being free to decide for yourself is much better.

buy what stretch of reasoning do you come to the conclusion that.

"The Declaration of Independence has nothing to do with religion"

Your doing nothing but posting the other extreme.

"Sounds like science to me, not God. "Natures God" is another term for the laws of physics and logic"

And you still haven't addressed Obama abuse of the constitution.

I guess their reliance on "DIVINE PROVIDENCE" is just a handshake and a hearty good luck fellow patriot.

Whos trying to rewrite history

I was watching a movie the other day. I noticed something, the Towers weren't in the New York skyline. Why is that. Some liberal democrat decide that it might hurt somebodys feelings so you think thats its ok to just rewrite and erase them from our history.

Whos rewriting history again.

All of these are generalized abstract phrases. They certainly don't state that the United States should become a religious state like the Muslim countries in the Mideast. In fact the founding fathers made their intentions clear by NOT creating a religious state. They had the opportunity after the Revolution because they became the first presidents and Congressman.

The founding fathers weren't religious clerics. They came from all walks of life and their purpose was to set up a government with freedom and equality, not to force a particular religion on people who didn't want it. Can you imagine the reaction of the early American citizens if they found out they were forced to live in a religious state like Muslim countries? I think their spirit of independence would put a quick end to that kind of "spirits" nonsense!

Yea thats clear and apparent through the first amendment. Thats why its there. So that faith can be a part of our lives without being hi-jacked by those that would abuse that power.

general abstract phrases that indicate the source of their inspiration. For you to try and deny this relationship is an injustice to our founding fathers.

So whats your beef with faith. Abortion, or is it faiths opinion on homosexuality. What aspect of the liberal Democratic agenda fuels your anger. If its just because a christian will try to exercise their faith then I would say that you are the enemy of the constitution.

Ya still won't talk about obamas abuse of the constitution and the spirit of the declaration.

History as I was taught isn't anything like I believe it was, or is, or will be.

That's an interesting point Dan. Historical events occurred due to a large number of conditions going on at the time. The facts often get distorted as time goes by. As they say, the winners write the history books. As a matter of fact, a couple of hundred years later, the author of this article is still trying to rewrite history to fit his own agenda.

The founding fathers made it clear that their inspiration was divine in nature. That men are created equal and freedom are christian values applied to humanity as a whole. Values that you are taking advantage of today.

You aren't debating the authors opinions here your attacking the authors basis for his opinions. And trying to deny a religious element that exist within our governments founding fathers. I think you are the one "trying to rewrite history" for the people on this post.

The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution do not state that Christian religion should be the state religion and that it should be forced on everyone in America. The founding fathers had personal beliefs just like everyone else. However, they were wise enough not to try to force everyone to have the same beliefs they had because they had political power when the nation declared independence or when they constructed the Constitution.

That is the lesson we should learn from the founding fathers.

The constitution goes as far as specifically stating that there should be no religious test to attain public office.

Just because the documents state these ideals does not deny the inspirations that led to their actions. The fact You are able to speak your anti-religious speech shows that our government works. You should thank your christian founding fathers for allowing christian tolerance to be incorporated into the framework of our country. The idea of fellowship or the sharing and debating of ideas is surely christian. Don't think a muslim would agree. Christianity not only allows us to know the law but allows us the flexibility to understand it as well

Im not going to deny that there are extremist out there. Just as there are extremist in every walk of life, in every interest that appeals to mankind. Can you address how they have abused our founding documents to suit their own purposes, (hint they are on both sides of the aisle.) instead of the christian bashing your taking part in.

I can see where Obama is shreading the constitution. Im not as well educated on the right though. Im not going to deny potential abuse though.

the declaration and the constitution are seperate documents.

You have to keep repeating that because the majority of Americans can't pass a civics 101 class.

The situation is Iran relates to this discussion. The people of Iran want free elections. They want the "will of the people" a.k.a. "democracy" to prevail. But they are being held subservient by the type of religious statethat the author of the article is promoting. Khameini, the religious "Supreme Leader" has determined that his choice for who should be elected overrides the will of the people. The people of Iran and America agree that is wrong.

It doesn't matter if Islam or Christianity is being forced on people -- it's wrong.

that a little bit of a stretch isn't it trying to equate christian missionary work to Iran theocratic government.

don't try to disguise Obamas lack of respect for the constitution with anti religious talk. Thats the thrust of the authors article. I haven't heard a single word from you about that yet. The only thing you have done is attack the author for having christian beliefs.

If our government was based solely on the Declaration we could very well have had a theocratic government. Fortunately it was not and the founding fathers created the constitution laying out the framework for our government and later adding the bill of rights.

PDeuth, some interest to me is a recent thesis on manipulative people. The religious inferences are as you say.....

That is the core principle of Evangelism - talking about it, and getting others to go along. The focus is entirely OFF oneself and the work and pain that comes with spiritual growth.

often covert manipulation is used by several posting here. But I just found out today how manipulative I became from time to time. I'd link it, but it's off-topic and I'd hate to stand in the way of the macho man aggressor residing over the crucial traitorous intentions of those predominantly deist souls, who cited the natural laws of cause and effect as evidence for the need to progress beyond the stale, patronizing that brought about the cause for rebellion, and no self-governed nation ever had a chance of living up to its principles before. The place to build such a nation was in America and the neglect of a dismissive ruler inspired no other dignified choice. The mention of almighty and universal judge was an invitation to such a being, so that there be little doubt that the decision to banish British rule from themselves was founded on reasonable grounds. The principles of self-rule call for all men pledge their life, wealth, and honor to each other..... of course, nobody could get the people to surrender their wealth back to the common trust, never mind how much greater the promise might have been percieved, or how much more devoted and single-minded their pursuit of universal self-rule might have impressed the people in every corner on earth....but, such discussion among the manipulative and powerful inspires only guffaws, and ridicule....yes, and, you just keep it up, and I'll bring my little wordpad file on the subject and I'll show you what you are doing. Care to know....

lael... My comments here have been judgmental, and I hope you don't think this comment is some sort of self-service for the sake of my own 'causes', where you are made to stand for some sort of antithisis to progressive, reasonable thinking. ...but it was from this last exchange that I got off on a tangent, exploring into why it is that things have gotten so divisive that we cannot come to terms with even the most crucially important principles ever to come along to improve the human condition.

I got to thinking about manipulation within my comment, and before I knew it, I was REALLY long-winded in an exploration into how manipulation is effecting us whether we know it or not. I ended up filing away that 'comment' and googling the subject, and I found this;

http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html

I know this is off-topic, but beings the origins of my search were inspired here on this thread, I thought you wouldn't mind my posting something we all need very much to understand. Please don't take offense...I 'seeded' this to the vine, because I feel we are all guilty to some degree sometimes of being manipulitave, and I found that I, too have the flaws.... I went a step further, putting myself in the position of being 'accused' of being manipulative, and I honestly believe I would have argued till the cows came home that I wasn't... I know my intentions are good, and that I've resisted temptations to be really manipulitave, but I didn't realize there were two types of manipulitave behaviour... check it out..

Perhaps some folks (hypocritical folks) promote hypocrisy in order to push their agenda.
You're welcome.

the declaration was there...I read it then, and I wanted to emmigrate, because our EU friends held onto the principles we were discouraged from demanding. It was our duty, to steer those we could back from the reckless destructive collective bent upon vengeance for its own sake.

Agreed. The founding documents serve their purpose well. Doesn't deny the role faith plays in life yet allowing for faiths diversity.

Yes, I agree with both of you guys on those 2 posts. Thanks for the conversation. Have a good 4th of July!